Artistic Synergies

In this conversation, stage director Ivo Van Hove and the French collective (LA)HORDE - Marine Brutti, Jonathan Debrouwer and Arthur Harel - discuss their collaboration on I Want Absolute Beauty that was premiered during Ruhrtriennale 2024. This production blends dance, theatre, and music by PJ Harvey, starring Sandra Hüller leading an ensemble of dancers and a rock band on stage. Van Hove and (LA)HORDE reflect on the importance of collaboration, the creative process, and the cultural and musical influences that have shaped their work

Ivo Van Hove: The title I Want Absolute Beauty comes from an interview with PJ Harvey where she spoke about Stories from the City, Stories from the Sea and Shore and her desire to create absolute beauty. The title struck me immediately. PJ Harvey is often linked to garage punk, but her music and emotional world are much richer. While staging Jesus Christ Superstar in Amsterdam in the beginning of 2024, I woke up every day at 6:30 each morning to listen to two or three albums by PJ Harvey, as did our dramaturg Koen Tachelet. We listened to everything and took notes on how the songs impacted us, which shaped the plot. I saw a journey from Dorset to London to New York and back to Dorset, which became an emotional journey. This influenced the arrangement of the songs. The first version I sent you, (LA)HORDE, changed a lot and ended up with twenty-seven songs. I discovered many stories and different personas of PJ Harvey, who constantly reinvents herself, much like David Bowie. I Want Absolute Beauty is about a woman accepting life’s ups and downs, recognizing that every emotional experience has its place. 

(LA)HORDE: When you invited us, Ivo, we were curious because we admire and understand your work (or so we think) and we were eager to see how we could collaborate with you. The large scope of the project intrigued us—there was a singer, an actress interpreting rather than impersonating, and Jan Versweyveld - the set and light designer - bringing visual elements, as well through video by Christopher Ash. We wanted to engage in this “global” conversation about one poet and musician. We appreciated that we weren’t confined to rigid roles but rather exploring our interactions and contributions. Ultimately, we saw it as a reunion of different artists around PJ Harvey’s work, with varied sensitivities, visions, and expressions of how her music and history resonate with us. 

I’ve learned not to try to please audiences. Be yourself and accept when some people hate it. Some people will love it. Different people will feel differently about what we made so you can just do your utmost best to make it heart breaking, to make it sometimes very cruel, to make it sometimes very political or emotional. For instance, when it comes to depicting the war, soldiers and the violence everybody will think and feel differently about it.  

PJ Harveys’ texts are political powerful, especially for women and feminists. It was a real challenge to figure out how we cooperate around a central character that carries significant mythology for each of us. PJ was someone we were listening to when we were teenagers. And we’re French so there was so much that we didn’t understand about her lyrics, but we were going along with it and went deeper to understand a little bit what drove this poet to go through those phases. It was interesting to see how we could make everything resonate in the dancers’ body. We never wanted to illustrate a story that we had to tell but more to enhance a movement and to show how the music moves us. For us, the songs of PJ are just an emotional journey. If we had to choose a favorite song it would feel like being a mother who can never say which child is her favorite. We cannot do that even though, of course I’m thinking of some, I'm sure you are thinking of some too. I think it would not be fair to pick one. Each song was a different journey. 

PJ’s music is very difficult to sing because she goes sometimes very high, and then again very low. And sometimes she almost screams. It asks a lot from the voice and Sandra Hüller stood amazingly to this challenge. Belgian composer and performer Liesa Van der Aa created new arrangements of the songs for our production and worked with Sandra on all musical aspects.  

You worked on the music in Bochum, we started our dance rehearsals in Marseille. You know, Ivo, when we received the audio recordings from your rehearsals… 

… you probably thought it was PJ Harvey! 

Yes, yes, yes! We did think it was probably PJ Harvey but we thought, sometimes she has like, a tiny German accent. 

You are right, you know when I heard Sandra’s singing, I said: “you sound like PJ Harvey” and it felt so organic for her voice. 

Yes, and because it's live, it never sounds exactly like on the record, so it took us a moment until we realised: it's not PJ’s voice. When we work independently, we usually follow our own vision. Here, though, we depended on your vision and saw it as an experiment—opening doors and exploring experiences with the dancers. We trusted in the dramaturgy and your guidance, which made it one of our best experiences due to the freedom we felt. We never approached dance in this way before and usually avoid illustrative dance. Having a guide in this process felt like being in a storm with a captain directing us. We’re always seeking, inspired by Pina Bausch’s quote: “I’m not interested in how people move but what moves them.” Our aim is to create situations that provoke movement and evoke emotions in the audience. We work with experienced dancers and those who struggle with movement, focusing on what makes them and the audience feel. During rehearsals, moments like Sandra’s scream and the immediate emotional response remind us of the grace we seek—not conventional beauty but a beauty that evokes grace through various elements like horror, violence, or love. We don’t follow specific styles but aim to convey emotions through movement. 

For my life and professional partner-in-crime Jan and me, for us dance and movement have always been part of our productions. Not really dance but movement. And my theatre was immediately labelled physical theatre. I always say there is a language in theatre of the text, of the words and a language of the body. It tells everything and I think in the theatre a lot of directors don’t take care of it enough. I tried to do it from the early days on. When I thought about this project, I immediately thought about (LA)HORDE. The work you do is a more  human kind of dance with a human way of dealing with choreography and I knew that this would be the best for this project. When we met, I immediately felt that we would have a connection. From the first day on, there was no sense of being prudent. You guys asked: “What do you think, Ivo?” And I said what I thought. And that’s what I like and that's sometimes very difficult. That’s why I like collaborations. I’m not afraid of collaborations on the contrary.  

From our first rehearsal, we made it clear that we are a collective. We work super directly and we never felt as free to say “I don’t like it”, or “I don’t understand it”. Because we want and we like this way of exchange. It's super easy to work with Ivo and Jan.  

You have a very strong chemistry between the three of you. I think I deciphered it by now, but I’m not sure (laughs). 

The collective was never a Utopia. We began working together in our early twenties, fresh out of school, and unsure of how the art world worked. Without family in the industry, finding resources and getting started was challenging. Initially, we assisted each other, but soon we realized that putting our names on every credit felt odd. So, we created something bigger than ourselves—(LA)HORDE. This decision freed us, allowing us to address things we might have been too shy to show as individuals. Under (LA)HORDE’s name, our work could be attributed to another author, giving us the courage to tackle difficult topics. 

We've spent more time together than with our own families, fostering a conversational and playful environment. We share references and stories, and the collective is a space full of energy, contradiction, and diverse viewpoints. It’s a tense but vibrant environment where we experience the full range of human emotions—fighting, loving, and hating. We also engage deeply with the young dancers of the new generation. 

Speaking of limits and influences, music was important to me all my life. I started with James Last, you guys won’t know him. My parents had a few albums of him. 

You’re right we don’t know him.  

He’s really terrible but very popular when I was a kid. He did this really bad modernized classical music. During the mid-seventies, I started buying albums myself with the little money I had. I would buy one album a week and skipped bars and cafés just to afford it. It was a vibrant time with Patti Smith, Bruce Springsteen, David Bowie, and the emerging punk scene. I’m deeply inspired by that era. I see all my productions as music theatre, even if there's no explicit music. I love classical music but enjoy a variety of genres. I might listen to Neil Young one day and Billie Eilish the next. Music has always been a significant source of inspiration for me. David Bowie was one of my heroes. At twenty, I wanted to see him in The Elephant Man on Broadway but couldn't afford it. Jan and I saved up to buy a ticket - we even skipped food to afford the ticket. I’ll never forget that experience. In New York, an elderly woman on a bench asked why we were there. When I said we wanted to see David Bowie and that I wanted to be a director, she gave me a book and asked me to sign it, saying, "You never know."  

When I won the Tony Award, I mentioned her in my speech, saying she would be watching and saying, “I knew already.” That moment and her belief in me, which contrasted with my parents' skepticism, made me fall in love with New York. It embodied the spirit that anything is possible, which has greatly inspired me. 

We often get asked about pop culture and our relation to it, and it's not a bad thing at all. Growing up, we had the “holy trinity” of Prince, Michael Jackson and Madonna. We were born in an era in which the three major pop artists reinvented what a live show is. A pop ballet in a way. Video choreography, amazing dancers, the three of them. Amazing creators of the culture, actors of culture. From very early on, especially in France, there has been a real vision of cultural priority. Not priority, just like… 

… the division into high and low culture. 

Exactly. So we freed ourselves from conventional constraints because we were initially shielded from them. After struggling to become artists, we chose to embrace the freedom we had gained and explore various directions. This curiosity led us to work with Christine, Sam Smith, and Madonna. We were intrigued by the process of creating and staging large, grand shows, even though our own work differs. 

Music's omnipresence is undeniable—it’s in supermarkets, cars, and everywhere in daily life. This widespread presence makes it impossible to ignore as artists. Instead of avoiding it, we aim to understand and embrace it, even as we don’t rely solely on it for emotion. Music, like Billie Eilish’s songs, evokes strong feelings, and despite generational differences, we find a deep, instinctive connection to pop music. 

That makes it not less deep. It's not because something is commercial that it's not deep. And that's what I believe. There is good and bad commercial theater, and that’s the same in the subsidized world 

Even with PJ Harvey, we are sometimes astonished that her music was commercialized because it’s hard to predict what will be a hit. While working with various singers in the pop industry, we’ve observed that the music and the artists there are quite different from those we engage with in the contexts like the Ruhrtriennale or in collaborations with Madonna. The industry and its systems are distinct from the freedom we experience on those stages. 

We truly appreciate working in environments that offer us artistic freedom. This stage provides a space for innovation and creativity, contrasting sharply with the rigid rules and constraints of the pop industry. In the world of pop culture, the economic and capitalist systems are profoundly influential, shaping the music and its reception. While pop stardom can be captivating and beautiful, it also exposes some of the more challenging aspects of the industry. This duality—where we see both the allure and the harsh realities—makes our work and experiences particularly rich and complex. How did it work in case of I Want Absolute Beauty for you - why did you choose to work with PJ Harvey  and how did she react to your offer.

I happened to be in London working on a production while everything was coming together for this project, and since PJ Harvey was living nearby, we met several times. I aimed to be open and engaging, trying to gain her support without revealing everything upfront. From the start, she made it clear that this was our project, not hers. She wanted to know the songs but left the project’s direction to us. When I provided her with a list of 30 songs, she reacted “this makes sense”. We then discussed how she preferred to perform herself. She expressed a desire to perform alone playing different instruments, similar to Neil Young’s style, though she also loved performing with just three musicians who could handle multiple instruments. The more challenging task was finding the right singer. PJ was specific about not wanting a singer with a vibrato voice, ruling out opera-style vocals. We needed someone versatile enough to go high and low but in a natural way. I had seen Sandra Hüller in two films around the same time: Anatomy of a Fall, which I watched in December, and The Zone of Interest, which I saw in London. Both films showcased her exceptional talent, reinforcing my positive impression from a previous project in Munich where she performed in my staging for four hours. Our dramaturge Koen, who had Sandra’s contact information, reached out to her. When I discussed the project with Sandra, she was immediately interested, driven by the challenge it presented. Despite her apprehensions, she was drawn to the project’s mix of (LA)HORDE’s and my approach. I informed PJ that Sandra was interested, and she enthusiastically approved without hesitation. There was no discussion; it was a straightforward decision. 

I think it was like kind of a surprise because she doesn’t look like her. It shifted the focus more onto the essence of her work rather than just trying to replicate her appearance. It’s really about the body of work. 

That's important. I also said that to PJ Harvey, I'm not going to make a biopic. I'm not going to delve into your life. I'm not going to read a biography of you. I'm not going to use the costumes that you use. I'm going to stay away. I did the same with my Bowie project. I told him, I'm not going to use your style, your thing. It's going to be our style that we bring to the project and immediately she said that's what I want. Because what PJ Harvey does , she does the best. It could only be a bad imitation of it. It wouldn’t be interesting. 

It’s also interesting to offer them a new perspective on their own world. This is a little gift that comes from you as a creator. 

Yes, and they see that their work can also mean something else than what they intended it to mean while creating it. One can interpret it anew and still stay truthful to what's already there.